Exploring the Human-Dog Relationship with Courtney Sexton

Music

Travis

What do you think the oldest love story of all time is? If you ask Virginia Tech's Courtney Sexton this question, she will not respond with Mamiel and Juliet, Mark Anthony and Cleopatra, or even Johnny Cash and June Carter. Instead, she'll tell you it's humankind and dogs. And while I am super fond of the two pups we have at home, who coincidentally do have larger Christmas stockings than me, I'm also super curious about what she actually means and super thankful that she took the time to let me ask her. Courtney is a postdoctoral research associate in the Department of Population Human Health Sciences in the Virginia Maryland College of Veterinary Medicine. She describes herself as an evolutionary anthropologist with a specific focus on human-animal interactions.

So I got to talk to Courtney a little about the history of this human and dog bond, how it's developed and evolved over time, and some of her current research that involves using dogs as sentinels for human health. And of course it wouldn't be a complete podcast about dogs unless we talked about the complex issue that isn't about dog movies. I'm Travis Williams and this is Virginia Tech's Curious Conversations.

Travis

So I'm curious, what is an anthropologist? What is an anthropologist study?

Courtney

So an anthropologist can be and can look like many different things. I think when we try to define ourselves in these fields, it gets a little hairy. And really what we should think about is, like, what is the question that we all share that our research is driven by? And to me and my world,

One of the most important questions that anthropology tries to answer in a variety of ways is what makes us human? Or what does it mean to be human? And my perspective is that our social relationships, our ability to connect with others in our social group, and that may or may not be other humans. You know, we live in a multi-species society these days in which companion animals play huge roles.

And so those ability to forge connections and have empathy are one of the kind of hallmarks in my mind of what makes us human.

Travis

Yeah, well, that's great, because I was gonna ask you, I've heard you say before that the greatest, maybe the oldest love story ever is between humans and dogs. And I was curious what has led you to that conclusion? Do you just not like Romeo and Juliet?

Courtney

Before we even wore clothes, we were hanging out with wolf dogs, today's domestic dog ancestors. So it goes back a few more thousands of years than that. And it is truly a remarkable relationship when it comes to interspecies bond. We see lots of examples of...you know, dynamic relationships. People think a lot about elephants and the flies that hang out around the elephants and eat the poop or like just there are these commensal relationships between lots of animals. But the one between humans and dogs is really special, again, because of the social nature of it and kind of how we've adapted together to both our physical environment and our social environment over the course of the last 30,000 years.

Travis

What do you think makes the relationship that humans have with dogs may be different than the relationship we might have with other companion animals?

Courtney

Sure. So in the first place, in terms of domesticated animals, dogs were the first animals that humans domesticated or that self-domesticated in response to this relationship with humans. From the very jump, it's been more of a partnership than some others. We were likely hunting together, sharing food, because there was an advantage, right, of having this huge predator on your side to track the prey for you means you're not having to run as fast and expend as many calories and, you know, need as much food. So it's this kind of really lovely partnership that starts over a shared need.

But, you know, early would-be dogs also had similar social relationships within their own packs and within their own families that I think we could identify as kind of kindred, I say kindred spirit, that's kind of woo wooy, but like, you know, it was identifiable to us and to the way we operated. So anyway.

Dogs were the first animals to be domesticated and they kind of paved the way for us to then domesticate horses and cattle and sheep and goats. And many of the other working animals domesticated, sometimes companion, but just like animals that are within our human society still today. In terms of other companion animals specifically, some people have birds many, many species of birds are super highly intelligent, super communicative, but their ecological niche, I'll say that's a little jargony, but kind of their world, if they were left on their own, if they weren't in the human space, is very, very different because they're still kind of always just entering it from the outside, whereas dogs have essentially come up with us as our society has evolved over the years.

Cats are another example. People ask me about cats a lot. And again, super intelligent, really interesting, great companions. For them, it's a little bit, how should I say it? They're not, you know, we're convenient for them. Essentially, cats don't need us in the way that dogs kind of do. So it's a little bit of a different give and take there, I would say.

Travis

Yeah, actually that makes a lot of sense to me. And I'm not here to dismiss or anger any of the cat people. Oh, for sure. Very passionate, great people. I myself am not a cat person, but when I was a kid, we had a cat and it was an outside cat and that cat would just kind of come and go. As it never, I don't know that it ever was in our house very much. And I can't. I don't know anybody that has a dog like that. I've never met a person that was like, hey, I have a wild dog that just comes and it shows up sometimes and lets me pet it and then it runs away and comes back and leaves a squirrel in front of my door.

Courtney

Yes, cats, I mean, again, it was, you know, humans as a species, we're, we're.

There are many of us and we're dirty and we leave things around where we go and that attracts rodents and that's useful for cats because they're like, cool, free meal and I don't have to worry about it. So yeah, I'll follow you guys around. Um, I will say that in, in many cultures and, you know, around the world and even here in the States, there are people whose dogs are, you know, free roaming during the day and come back at night, you know, kind of, um, that does happen. We don't.

I think see it as much, especially I live in an urban area, so I see that very rarely. But it's something like, I think the number these days is about 80% of the world's population of domesticated dogs are actually free roaming. So they're not, well, they definitely interact with people and still depend on people in terms of being providers in one way or another quote unquote, owned in the sense that we think of most companion animals as being.

Travis

Oh, wow. So maybe it's just that we don't see that population of dogs that much. So I'm curious in like more of the research side of stuff, what role have dogs played in human development?

Courtney

I like to say that we're here because of them. And, you know, that's a little bit of hyperbole. It's I'm exaggerating. But in some senses, it's not quite far off the mark is again, as I was saying, they were the first animals that we domesticated and that really paved the way for us to domesticate other animals, to domesticate food animals, to kind of establish agrarian societies and more permanent settlements. Once we domesticated horses and camels and things like that, we could increase travel and global trade. So it spirals out from there and it sounds a little grandiose when I say it, but they really were kind of one of the first the first dominoes in that chain sort of thing. And so I think that in many ways dogs are largely responsible for how we have developed as a species and could there have been another animal that also played that role? Sure, you know, that's, that's the nature of, you know, evolution and biology. But we got dogs and I'm pretty happy about it. We've also seen them play different roles as our politics and our societies have changed. You know, in the late 1800s, the Victorian era, there was kind of an explosion of breeding, so specialized breeding for dogs that looked a certain way, behaved a certain way, assumed a certain task that weren't necessarily always working tasks because they have been super helpful to us. They continue to be in especially agrarian contexts, hunting, guarding, that sort of thing. But we started seeing fanciers, you know, so people who wanted to make a really cute little lap dog. And while they may not be the best at scaring away a would-be predator, they serve other roles like, you know, really important companionship. They maybe calm people down. you know, they're members of the family when people don't always have them. And that has really been, I think, within the past 25 years, especially the increasing number of roles that dogs are playing in our society. You know, search and rescue therapy animals, their service animals. They do conservation work. There are dogs that sniff out invasive species and tracks scat of endangered animals.

And the list kind of just goes on. And I think that that's largely because they are so adaptable and they are so attuned to our, the way we move through the world, even as that changes for us with technology and everything else. I don't know if I answered your question. It's kind of a ramble.

Travis

No, I think that makes a lot of sense. It sounds like that they have kind of evolved with us.

we've changed each other maybe in a way. Yeah, absolutely. I will say, you know, these LabDogs, like do not tell them that they are not protecting the house. No, you are absolutely right. You're absolutely right. Because they have a very, they have a different opinion on that. It's been my experience.

Courtney

I agree. You know, and one of the other things is these days, and this kind of segues into some of the work that I'm doing here at Tech more so.

Another kind of newer role that we're actually cognizant of dogs playing is this role as sentinels. So they're kind of indicators for us of our own health and well-being on both physical and social levels. So what I mean by that is, you know, we're all familiar with the idea of the canary in the coal mine, right? So miners would bring...canary down to the coal mine and if it passed out or stopped singing, they knew that oxygen levels were not good and they needed to get to higher ground or out of the mine sooner, right? So it's this idea that they can be an early warning signal. Because dogs are so integrated, companion animals generally, but dogs specifically, are so integrated into our society, share our environment so intimately. They're in our homes, they're exposed to the same environmental risk factors, they breathe the same air, they're touching the same surfaces, the same chemicals are potentially, you know, getting into their systems. They can show us in different ways what we might also be susceptible to. And that's in part, you know, it's...

It's sometimes hard to see long-term risks of things, but unfortunately dogs live a little bit shorter lives than we do. And so we can kind of see things emerge in them where we might not see that happen for a longer time in humans. Their physiology is also really similar. So they get cancers in similar ways that we do. They're affected by respiratory illness. So there's a lot we can learn from them on the physical health side. But then also on the social and emotional health side, if a population of people is under-resourced or vulnerable, you can sure bet that the companion animals in that population, in that community are also, and you're gonna see it there first, right? So these are some of the things we think a lot about.

Travis

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And so you came to Virginia Tech to do postdoctoral work. What drew you to Virginia Tech to do that?

Courtney

A couple of things. So again, coming from the anthropology side, I'd spent a lot of time with people who focused more on primate models, so looked at our closest genetic relatives for clues of our own kind of beginnings.

I was very much more interested in dogs during that time because they share, you know, that environment. Again, it's a different, right? So like they, you know, yes, we have, we share 98, 99% of our genetics with chimpanzees, but nothing else. So like, we don't know how other factors are acting on those genetics because it's just a different niche. Anyway, that's a tangent.

So part of my reason for coming to Virginia Tech was to be around dog people and to engage a bit more with the veterinary side of the field, which has been remarkably just so illuminating for me. It's really cool to step into just a new segment and have a different perspective on what you've been thinking about in one or a couple of ways for a long time. So...you get to peak your curiosity with new and different things and learn new and different skills. And especially I was drawn to tech because of Audrey, because of my mentor, Audrey Ruble, who runs the lab in the epidemiology lab in the vet school. And she was working on the Dog Aging Project, which is a large multi-institute, longitudinal study that involves thousands of dogs and we have just incredible amounts of data on the dogs and their people in terms of their behavior, their genetics, their health history, and there's just a lot you can do when you have that kind of multitude of data. So Audrey definitely enticed me with that. But then the other component of it that she is, you know, kind of really an expert in is seeing that bigger picture, what we call the one health lens. And that is that, you know, the environment, people, and the other animals with whom we share that environment, the health of those three, that, you know, that triad, that Venn diagram is all interwoven. And so if one is sick, the others are also, and the effects are felt down the line and around the line, and can be amplified for some, you know, more than others.

I'm sorry, you're probably hearing some tip tapping of my dog as we speak.

Travis

That seems fitting. That seems fitting for this podcast.

Courtney

Exactly. So yeah, so like I think that's been the component that has been especially exciting for me because I have some, one of a conservation background as well. And so that kind of environmental factor is really, really cool.

Travis

Well that's awesome. And I think you answered like four other questions that I didn't have to ask. So thank you very much.

Courtney

That's a, that's a, that is, that's great.

Travis

I am curious though, when you started getting into your, your studies and figuring out you wanted to do, you know, anthropology, was it always, did you always have in mind this intersection between humans and canines?

Courtney

Yes, absolutely. I entered the field, um, with a focus in my mind on behavior and animal behavior specifically

And at the time, it was still very, and still is very common for people studying human-animal bonds, for people studying human-dog relationships to be part of a psychology department or a sociology department or an anthropology department more so than today where you have actual around the world many labs and groups that actually focus specifically on dogs and canine cognition or canine behavior. So that's been a really cool explosion of the field. I think really what it comes down to is it's just the lens that you're looking through to answer those questions. So I was like, all right, what is it from the perspective of, again, that where we come from, what is humanness that drives this relationship that we have with dogs?

Travis

I only have one other question, but it's kind of a two-port question. Can you watch dog movies? And if so, do you have a favorite dog movie?

Courtney

Can I watch them? Yes, I can, except that my dog will usually bark at them if he is present. So he is a very avid television watcher. He, yes, any animal actually moving on the screen, he takes issue with. So.

I do watch them. Oh man, what was my favorite? Oh, I mean, you know, I grew up in the Homeward Bound era. And so that's always a classic. Man, I'm trying to think of some more recent ones that people might know.

Travis

I think Homeward Bound is a good choice because I think that that's a, if I'm remembering correctly, that's a movie with a very positive ending for the dogs.

Courtney

That's right. That's right.

Travis

Yeah, I do think I think if I had to name one off the top of my head, because again, I think that's why people have trouble with dog movies, right? It's because they don't always end well because of this short lifespan. Like there's a lot of music going on. They're so good.

Courtney

Yes. Right.

Travis

So I tend to go away from them. However, I will say I think Beethoven ended pretty good for everybody.

Courtney

That's a good one also. Yeah. Like, let's lean into those a little bit more. I feel I feel good about that.

(music)

Travis

And thanks to Courtney for helping us better understand a little bit about humankind and its oldest friend, dogs. If you or someone you know would make for a great curious conversation, email me at traviskw at v2.edu. I'm Travis Williams, and this has been Virginia Tech's Curious Conversations.